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Topic Title: xample of overharvesting/shock loss
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Created On: 04/10/2017 12:25 PM
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 04/10/2017 12:25 PM
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topcat
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I thought this was a really good example of overharvesting/shock loss. It's important to understand because now that the strip story no longer works many clinics have moved on to not only fue but fue promising high numbers. Well high numbers may not be a good idea.

The procedure is limited in what can be restored so understand the numbers. Most can only achieve 25% coverage of their long term loss which is acceptable for some so plan wisely and plan long term.




Link

-------------------------
Stay away from doctors who perform mega sessions, have posts deleted, attack posters, sue patients & forum owners, use power drills or robots. I recommend fue with hand punches in the .70-.85 range. I consulted with dozens of clinics over the years and there was a recurring theme regarding FUE among some employees of those other clinics. I was told Bisanga was the man my research told me the same and my experience validated my own research.

Edited: 04/12/2017 at 01:36 PM by topcat
 04/19/2017 07:44 PM
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SeanFUE
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That is some serious overharvesting/shockloss. What is sad is that I know many folks that have donor shockloss and it hasn't even returned. This includes even folks who had less than 2000 total grafts extracted via FUE. The procedure doesn't even have to be that big and you can still end up with permanent damage. I even know a couple folks who have donor halos as a result of compressed extractions. Some even by the same clinic. It is absolutely ridiculous. I am just so fed up with docs taking advantage of folks to make money. Some folks just wish they can turn back time and never go through with the procedure. It is brutal when folks need to chase repairs on damaged tissue. Some docs need to get their licenses revoked, including some known and marketed names on forums.
 04/20/2017 02:38 AM
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topcat
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Yes Sean I agree and it all comes down to having the information. I know many in the industry seem to like to blame the patient but of course we all know many of these patients were not fully informed regardless of what the industry has to say. If they were informed they would lose the sweet spot of young guys between the ages of 20-30 and the only failure we would see is the failure in making the sale.

Of course there is more to know to what goes on in this industry then a few lines but we can start with this.

Most experiencing hair loss will lose up to 20,000 follicular units. If one chooses to pass on the strip procedure because they want to avoid the scar that removing a huge chunk of skin from the back of the head leaves then this definitely reduces the number of donor hairs available. They also might want to avoid the strip procedure because regardless of the number of hairs per graft those hairs are just too thick to not look slightly bizarre up close when used for the hairline. Anyone that disagrees needs to view dozens and dozens of hair transplants in person. This is often why you see people in the spotlight like Jeremy Pivens do the slight comb forward because we know he has had work done but more importantly it was a strip. You also avoid the visual depression at the back of the head at the line where the hair direction makes an abrupt change because part of the picture was removed.

This then reduces most to fue and the numbers for donor start to drop with an average being around 5000. That represents 25% of one's original hair. Long term that is a very, very bad combover. Short term it might work but long term the numbers don't lie.

Many believe they can take those 5000 grafts and have it done it steps or maybe one procedure depending. If you are working with 25% coverage how many chances do you get to make a mistake and go to where marketers would like you to go...................zero. There are no second chances with a very limited procedure.

You are basically cutting out 5000 pieces of skin and moving them into holes that have been cut out on the top of your head. Have you ever seen someone with acne scarring? Hair transplantation is not tweezing out hairs and moving them around it's cutting outs small chunks of skin. Even with all of this most doctors cannot achieve a density of more than 30 fu/cm which is nowhere near the density many young guys are expecting. They are simply told sure we can do that as opposed to being given the numbers. What are the numbers? Show me what you have achieved through pictures and a count while also being able to achieve that count over and over again. It can't be done. They can't show you those pictures because only a small percentage of original density can be achieved through surgery. So I were advising these young guys I would simply tell them it's impossible regardless of what a marketer would tell you. HT is see through hair. Yes some will have the lighting right with it coming from a certain angle as opposed to over head. It makes it look thick otherwise you would see right through it.

This can all easily cost $20K or more. If you are a repair patient anywhere from $50-$100K and at best you can still only achieve that small percentage of hair. My average workweek when I was younger was about 78 hours/week. It taught me to work hard because I needed to fix this which was a benefit but of course it would have been nice to avoid. If I had only had the information I needed but unfortunately it was nowhere to be found. There were no consumer advocates just as there are no consumer advocates today at least as of yet. A person either works in the industry and tries to make as many connections as possible or they don't. Understand this completely a consumer advocate cannot work in the same industry where he is advocating for the consumer.

When the procedure is explained in a way that one fully understands chances are they will wait until the time is appropriate or they will pass. This does not work for those that want to make money now. Of course there is more to all of this then what I have posted here but it's a start for those that are young and need information.

Some of the worst shock loss out there is a result of some of the other sh*t that is sold like PRP but if you tell people that how do you sell it. How about some of these doctors that post the feel good threads on toxins like those found in hair care products. You can see it over the years as it too is a repeatable pattern. Creating image I suppose. Yet you have some of those same doctors injecting ink into a guy's head for profit. Seems to be some kind of disconnect there wouldn't you say. Let me save you from your shampoo while I inject ink into your head that ends up in your lymph nodes. Many simply miss it all because they are desperate and it needs to be pointed out.The best advice for most is to just observe.

-------------------------
Stay away from doctors who perform mega sessions, have posts deleted, attack posters, sue patients & forum owners, use power drills or robots. I recommend fue with hand punches in the .70-.85 range. I consulted with dozens of clinics over the years and there was a recurring theme regarding FUE among some employees of those other clinics. I was told Bisanga was the man my research told me the same and my experience validated my own research.

Edited: 04/20/2017 at 11:04 AM by topcat
 04/23/2017 05:04 AM
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topcat
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Sean let me ask you a rhetorical question. When these guys that work in the industry go off script for a moment what do you make of it? You know when they drop the nice helpful guy routine and do something different. It's easy for many to just dismiss it because they simply want to believe that it's not what it appears to be. One can then understand how if they become a patient and it doesn't work out they too can be threatened or spoken down to in the same manner. Not too appealing but reality.

Here is another question that does not require an answer but only thought. When these guys working the forums represent more than one doctor how do they explain when one doctor's script is so different than another's? How do they finagle it all and make it sound like they are speaking truth and not making up more bull crap so they don't tarnish their image? They can't.........they can try but it is what it is so those reading it should not dismiss it.

The majority working the forums every day are simply marketers so just be careful.

Hey Sean I'm full of questions today. If you were my patient or if I didn't like what you had to say and I kind of mentioned that I saw your wife the other day she works over at so and so or anything else along those lines...............what exactly does that mean? Why in the world would I be telling you that? I mean I don't get it how can that even be explained.

Sean part of having integrity is having the ability to tell a friend they are a complete as*hole and part ways if necessary because what they are doing is wrong. Many of these guys in this little group of marketers can't do this because they simply do not possess integrity....................

I got called out a couple of years ago because a short story I posted of my life experience was twisted. Basically the story revolved around me telling a friend to stick something up their ass. You see what these guys don't get and never will is standing up against someone that is doing wrong or causing harm is not bullying............it's integrity. This little group of marketers as stated just don't get it..............or they work to hard at trying to twist things as opposed to being honest. It's a sign for anyone that is considering a procedure and an important part of research. Don't end up like the guy in the picture with the decimated donor because when it all starts to appear 10-20 years down the line these guys don't know you or they will be gone.


Another repeatable pattern is labeling a poster that posts truth a narcissist. This creates doubt in the poster's mind and results in them simply moving on without going to trouble of continuing to help others. Search the history and you will find this to be true as it has happened over and over again if one spends the time watching. Most are simply too lazy to search history and want the information handed to them and that is why the marketers try to maintain some type of control. Maybe the real narcissist is the guy that is consumed by hair and feels the need to promote it on a daily basis. Yes that is very normal.


Personally I think it was a new low for these scumbags in the industry to get into my wife's business but this is what desperation will do. What they are hoping to do is goad posters into an angry response so that they can once again label them and many of the forums work along with it. Gives them a great opportunity to ban them if necessary. So Sean you have to consider much of what you are seeing as fraud and doctors participating with these marketers need to be looked at a little closer.

So if these are honest people why is all this going on? That question you can answer. Explain it to me why are they doing this?

Many had a golden opportunity to help patients avoid issues like the donor decimation we see above but instead they got drawn in by the money and the power they feel when they make lots of connections. They start to feel important and it becomes a bit too seductive for them because they felt insecure to begin with and that is why many of them got hair transplants. Then you have those that think they are going to start a forum and do the right thing and then slowly they realize they need the marketers to keep posting under their names and the ones they make up so that they can move up in the eyeball rankings and make some money. They then understand why as a poster they couldn't understand it all.

So what do you do if you make lots of connections in the industry and one of your buddies want to be on the list? What if some patients have posted very negative experiences? What do you do does the guy make the list? How does that work?

-------------------------
Stay away from doctors who perform mega sessions, have posts deleted, attack posters, sue patients & forum owners, use power drills or robots. I recommend fue with hand punches in the .70-.85 range. I consulted with dozens of clinics over the years and there was a recurring theme regarding FUE among some employees of those other clinics. I was told Bisanga was the man my research told me the same and my experience validated my own research.

Edited: 04/25/2017 at 04:10 PM by topcat
 04/27/2017 06:16 AM
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topcat
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Sean I would encourage you to do nothing but observe at this point. I don't think you know enough about how these guys operate and maybe that makes me sound like an as*hole but that is what I believe. You have used up close to 4500 grafts already and for whatever reason it has not met your expectations. Maybe it was simply a miscommunication but I wasn't in the room so I don't know who said what or what your impression was at the time and for what reason.

Whatever you do have left as far as donor you might need down the line just to look normal which could very well be thinning/balding but most importantly normal. Just wait it out and other options could easily become available only time will tell.

Much of what you are seeing is about creating image. For example many of the marketers will just keep repeating their message over and over again. It kind of creates reality for the reader so be aware that it could be a red flag. A perfect example of a red flag would be the marketer that posts about every 3 months under various screen names mentioning this doctor and how he is booked up until who knows 2035. It's a distinct pattern that can be observed if one is watching. Of course there are dozens and dozens of red flags which I won't go into here.

I believe what is happening is that doctors are starting to walk away from these paid for lists for many reasons. We see it happening now in fact doctors with integrity are participating less on the forums because it's all becoming a bit too obvious. And really if you were a master at something do you really want to be on the list with so many B players with the list advancing to C players because others are leaving............probably not. Yes this does make it difficult for the consumer and also why history of words and actions are the only real option. Good luck and be patient.

When you start to add all this up then you have to assume doctors that are participating are condoning all of this including deleted threads, attacks of patients and their families etc. This then makes a great list of those to avoid.

Some of what you are witnessing online is just a den of thieves going at each other because the various screen names in all likelihood are those that work in the industry. But regardless there is value in watching them go at each other. When you combine slime ball marketers and arrogant doctors you can easily see how the consumer ends up confused and for those that have not been trapped it's just another red flag that is telling you something.


Sean if there was more room and I could have added to my signature 10 years ago it would have been to stay away from arrogant doctors and doctors tied to marketers. If I look back over the last 30+ years what really screwed me over were the marketers. Yes it becomes easy to believe and of course I now get it all. The best I can do is pass it on in a big way while using the lessons moving forward. Most marketers are parasite slimeballs...............it's the most important lesson.

When doctors basically start telling you their own marketers are full of crap then that should wake you up. Now who is connected to who and who is full of crap. Sean just observe. Who is right the doctor or marketer referring to themselves as experts along with the other marketers in their group and then referring to each other as experts. Yeah sure just keep repeating it so we don't forget.

Don't listen to anonymous posters unless of course they are praising the marketer or going from forum to forum congratulating the team.

It's not the tool it's the doctor

We are the experts

There is no evidence that injecting ink into your head will give you cancer

Round and round she goes where she stops nobody knows.............everyone a winner. Why in the world would a doctor with integrity participate in this............they wouldn't.

-------------------------
Stay away from doctors who perform mega sessions, have posts deleted, attack posters, sue patients & forum owners, use power drills or robots. I recommend fue with hand punches in the .70-.85 range. I consulted with dozens of clinics over the years and there was a recurring theme regarding FUE among some employees of those other clinics. I was told Bisanga was the man my research told me the same and my experience validated my own research.

Edited: 04/29/2017 at 06:27 AM by topcat
 05/20/2017 11:18 AM
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SeanFUE
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Top, i jus saw you posted. Will read it and give my input. Thank you for eloquently explaining it all to me.
 05/22/2017 05:50 AM
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topcat
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Was going to post a link but changed my mind.

Something I posted on HLT

-------------------------
Stay away from doctors who perform mega sessions, have posts deleted, attack posters, sue patients & forum owners, use power drills or robots. I recommend fue with hand punches in the .70-.85 range. I consulted with dozens of clinics over the years and there was a recurring theme regarding FUE among some employees of those other clinics. I was told Bisanga was the man my research told me the same and my experience validated my own research.
 05/23/2017 09:39 PM
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SeanFUE
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You wrote: Yes Sean I agree and it all comes down to having the information. I know many in the industry seem to like to blame the patient but of course we all know many of these patients were not fully informed regardless of what the industry has to say. If they were informed they would lose the sweet spot of young guys between the ages of 20-30 and the only failure we would see is the failure in making the sale.

My response: I agree Top, i have seen quite a few folks blame the patient lately. There is no question, even if you think you were fully informed, you really aren't. There are docs that will just about say anything to get you in that chair. Ive seen kids out of high school getting FUT when their patterned looked aggressive. Sometimes I wondered how a doc could even take them, but it all started making sense. It is a numbers game. The kid had a virgin scalp and he wasnt even disfigured, but the doc took him, even though at that kids age, norwood pattern looked somewhat aggressive.

You wrote: Of course there is more to know to what goes on in this industry then a few lines but we can start with this.

My response: More to know but very few are willing to tell it like it is. That's why it is good to see folks like you remain persistent and talk knowledge.

You wrote: Most experiencing hair loss will lose up to 20,000 follicular units. If one chooses to pass on the strip procedure because they want to avoid the scar that removing a huge chunk of skin from the back of the head leaves then this definitely reduces the number of donor hairs available. They also might want to avoid the strip procedure because regardless of the number of hairs per graft those hairs are just too thick to not look slightly bizarre up close when used for the hairline. Anyone that disagrees needs to view dozens and dozens of hair transplants in person. This is often why you see people in the spotlight like Jeremy Pivens do the slight comb forward because we know he has had work done but more importantly it was a strip. You also avoid the visual depression at the back of the head at the line where the hair direction makes an abrupt change because part of the picture was removed.

This then reduces most to fue and the numbers for donor start to drop with an average being around 5000. That represents 25% of one's original hair. Long term that is a very, very bad combover. Short term it might work but long term the numbers don't lie.

Many believe they can take those 5000 grafts and have it done it steps or maybe one procedure depending. If you are working with 25% coverage how many chances do you get to make a mistake and go to where marketers would like you to go...................zero. There are no second chances with a very limited procedure.

You are basically cutting out 5000 pieces of skin and moving them into holes that have been cut out on the top of your head. Have you ever seen someone with acne scarring? Hair transplantation is not tweezing out hairs and moving them around it's cutting outs small chunks of skin. Even with all of this most doctors cannot achieve a density of more than 30 fu/cm which is nowhere near the density many young guys are expecting. They are simply told sure we can do that as opposed to being given the numbers. What are the numbers? Show me what you have achieved through pictures and a count while also being able to achieve that count over and over again. It can't be done. They can't show you those pictures because only a small percentage of original density can be achieved through surgery. So I were advising these young guys I would simply tell them it's impossible regardless of what a marketer would tell you. HT is see through hair. Yes some will have the lighting right with it coming from a certain angle as opposed to over head. It makes it look thick otherwise you would see right through it.

My response: That's what I don't get Top. You got docs claiming they can achieve yield that matches their FUT and that there is no difference between the two procedures. Then they may offer 65cm2 density but the actual product is less than the 30cm2. Priceless tissue and graft removal and the young ones thing this is the answer. The best answer should be to avoid surgery. Then when you complain, you got some marketers saying every doc has failures and it is what it is. Prior to all this, you are told of guarantees. How dense it will be, the confidence in their work etc.. Looking at the density under office lighting and sun, then it is a whole different story.

You wrote: This can all easily cost $20K or more. If you are a repair patient anywhere from $50-$100K and at best you can still only achieve that small percentage of hair. My average workweek when I was younger was about 78 hours/week. It taught me to work hard because I needed to fix this which was a benefit but of course it would have been nice to avoid. If I had only had the information I needed but unfortunately it was nowhere to be found. There were no consumer advocates just as there are no consumer advocates today at least as of yet. A person either works in the industry and tries to make as many connections as possible or they don't. Understand this completely a consumer advocate cannot work in the same industry where he is advocating for the consumer.

You wrote: When the procedure is explained in a way that one fully understands chances are they will wait until the time is appropriate or they will pass. This does not work for those that want to make money now. Of course there is more to all of this then what I have posted here but it's a start for those that are young and need information.

Some of the worst shock loss out there is a result of some of the other sh*t that is sold like PRP but if you tell people that how do you sell it. How about some of these doctors that post the feel good threads on toxins like those found in hair care products. You can see it over the years as it too is a repeatable pattern. Creating image I suppose. Yet you have some of those same doctors injecting ink into a guy's head for profit. Seems to be some kind of disconnect there wouldn't you say. Let me save you from your shampoo while I inject ink into your head that ends up in your lymph nodes. Many simply miss it all because they are desperate and it needs to be pointed out.The best advice for most is to just observe.

My Response: Prp is being pushed by quite a few docs now. Some say it may help with density and shock loss as their formulation may be different. For a some victims, these things look like they may work. Smp and the lymph node worries is what scares me. I even though about permanent smp at one point but the fading discoloring ink along with cancer concerns threw me off. You have well known docs offer it and what happens if a patient develops cancer? It is then probably then blamed on their own physiology. I agree more and more should talk about alternate ways and how perfecting health and natural ingredients may help without toxins, but very few would even mention such therapies. Some just say there is not enough scientific evidence behind it.


-----------------------


You wrote: Sean let me ask you a rhetorical question. When these guys that work in the industry go off script for a moment what do you make of it? You know when they drop the nice helpful guy routine and do something different. It's easy for many to just dismiss it because they simply want to believe that it's not what it appears to be. One can then understand how if they become a patient and it doesn't work out they too can be threatened or spoken down to in the same manner. Not too appealing but reality.

Some marketers with some clinics can sell anything. If they drop the nice guy routine, then all hell can break loose. Ive seen it happen plenty of times across forums. A lot of young guys are easily swayed because they are desperate. They think some docs are their friends and the marketer helping is their childhood friend. Problem is some guys fail to understand is that the person spitting the bitter truth is provably your only friend in this industry.

Here is another question that does not require an answer but only thought. When these guys working the forums represent more than one doctor how do they explain when one doctor's script is so different than another's? How do they finagle it all and make it sound like they are speaking truth and not making up more bull crap so they don't tarnish their image? They can't.........they can try but it is what it is so those reading it should not dismiss it.

My Response: A lot of folks ive spoke to wonder same thing. What differentiates doc A from Docs B, C, D, E, F, G.... ? One may offer neograft, another ARTAS, another SafeFUE, another some other motorized tool, another offering hybrid procedures? But the quality of work presented from each doc is very different from another. A lot of different variables between docs. It is harder to understand when you are new to researching surgeons but as time progresses you hopefully learn.

You wrote: The majority working the forums every day are simply marketers so just be careful.

My response: Some are while some help provide resources like this. If a forum protects a doctor more than a patient, then it is a problem.

You wrote: Hey Sean I'm full of questions today. If you were my patient or if I didn't like what you had to say and I kind of mentioned that I saw your wife the other day she works over at so and so or anything else along those lines...............what exactly does that mean? Why in the world would I be telling you that? I mean I don't get it how can that even be explained.

Sean part of having integrity is having the ability to tell a friend they are a complete as*hole and part ways if necessary because what they are doing is wrong. Many of these guys in this little group of marketers can't do this because they simply do not possess integrity....................

My response: Well said. Integrity is a dying trait it seems. Some doctors do not even adhere to ethics and the doctors code. Some marketers, it is the same thing. As ive learned the hard way, not everyone is as honest as you are. After serving in the military, the only answer I gave was the right answer. It was a life or death judgment. It is how they shape you so there is no room for error. Then you learn that not everyone works the same way.


You wrote: I got called out a couple of years ago because a short story I posted of my life experience was twisted. Basically the story revolved around me telling a friend to stick something up their ass. You see what these guys don't get and never will is standing up against someone that is doing wrong or causing harm is not bullying............it's integrity. This little group of marketers as stated just don't get it..............or they work to hard at trying to twist things as opposed to being honest. It's a sign for anyone that is considering a procedure and an important part of research. Don't end up like the guy in the picture with the decimated donor because when it all starts to appear 10-20 years down the line these guys don't know you or they will be gone.

Another repeatable pattern is labeling a poster that posts truth a narcissist. This creates doubt in the poster's mind and results in them simply moving on without going to trouble of continuing to help others. Search the history and you will find this to be true as it has happened over and over again if one spends the time watching. Most are simply too lazy to search history and want the information handed to them and that is why the marketers try to maintain some type of control. Maybe the real narcissist is the guy that is consumed by hair and feels the need to promote it on a daily basis. Yes that is very normal.

My response: I remember you getting hammered by a lot of folks. New posters with minimal thread counts started popping up and coming for you. You held your ground well. Now, about donor loss/depletion. That's exactly what worries me. Ive been going through hell and my donor has been taking a beating. Sometimes i wish i can turn back the clock and rethink the process. Thank god, i have a powerful team of doctors at the military hospitals overlooking and even viewing some venues online. These docs work on fixed salaries which are fraction to what private practices can make. Some are 30+ years and doing the same thing. They tend to really care for patient. Not saying all private docs don't care. However, the military docs have no marketers. It is just them and you and a file. They do have a lot of power though, that is something i learned.

You wrote: Personally I think it was a new low for these scumbags in the industry to get into my wife's business but this is what desperation will do. What they are hoping to do is goad posters into an angry response so that they can once again label them and many of the forums work along with it. Gives them a great opportunity to ban them if necessary. So Sean you have to consider much of what you are seeing as fraud and doctors participating with these marketers need to be looked at a little closer.

So if these are honest people why is all this going on? That question you can answer. Explain it to me why are they doing this?

Many had a golden opportunity to help patients avoid issues like the donor decimation we see above but instead they got drawn in by the money and the power they feel when they make lots of connections. They start to feel important and it becomes a bit too seductive for them because they felt insecure to begin with and that is why many of them got hair transplants. Then you have those that think they are going to start a forum and do the right thing and then slowly they realize they need the marketers to keep posting under their names and the ones they make up so that they can move up in the eyeball rankings and make some money. They then understand why as a poster they couldn't understand it all.

So what do you do if you make lots of connections in the industry and one of your buddies want to be on the list? What if some patients have posted very negative experiences? What do you do does the guy make the list? How do

My response: No one should be taking jabs at your wife and etc. that's uncalled for and is more like a distraction from the point you are trying to make. Some Forums for most part, should be more careful with aiding and abetting folks via marketing deception. FTC isnt stupid, A lot of powerful agencies review everything and do not lunge until they have enough evidence that when you file a motion they have thousands of motions against you. They may even wait like 15-20 years to make a move, archiving everything, to build up an insane case. Some forums and marketers should be mindful of such things. It doesn't matter what the disclaimer is or if you change your story, if you are a business that hosts claims or etc, then intent can be proven. Some folks may not understand that and may be ok with that. This is an industry that should be monitored continuously. Best folks can do is lure the right people to the right venues.
I know tons of patients with bad experiences and yes, some of this docs have made it into lists of all kinds. I cant even count the number of repair folks that gave reached out to me. Some days I feel like starting a repair us anonymous group.


-------------------------


Top, i can keep observing. Ive been going through a lot. Not sure where anything is headed at the moment. Maybe we will see breakthroughs soon. Ive also noticed the trend of some docs leaving some paid lists.

By the way i saw your post on that other site. You are huge! Those ironfist videos were very interesting. Im a fan of MMA so can see how that comes in handy. It is amazing to see what you been put through and see you transform your body and keep a positive mindset. Many folks cant even do that. I am working out more, doing things like you and naturally. Im trying to keep mind off things and would love to be at peace. Lets see what future holds.
 05/24/2017 02:28 PM
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topcat
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Hey Sean I was mistaken you are well aware of what goes on.

If you can wait then yes wait technology is moving way too fast.

-------------------------
Stay away from doctors who perform mega sessions, have posts deleted, attack posters, sue patients & forum owners, use power drills or robots. I recommend fue with hand punches in the .70-.85 range. I consulted with dozens of clinics over the years and there was a recurring theme regarding FUE among some employees of those other clinics. I was told Bisanga was the man my research told me the same and my experience validated my own research.
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